MBDB - First time - Not a substitute for MDMA

[5ht]

MBDB compared to MDMA
April 27th, 2002
Because of its claimed similarities to MDMA, I had been curious about MBDB for quite a while. Many people might have the same questions I had, so I will attempt to run a qualitative comparison between it and MDMA.reindeer poop scooper
The express delivery package with 1g of MBDB arrived this morning at 10:30am while I was making coffee. (Unexpected surprise for a Saturday morning)! We immediately changed our plans for breakfast and figure that since we had been fasting since the night before and had nothing planned for the rest of they day, this would be perfect. I then pulled out my pocket scale (Deering 10g) and cut 250mg for myself and 200mg for my wife (which doses at approximately 2.85mg/kg of body weight for the both of us).
11:00am
Down the hatch. It tastes similar to MDMA, but even more "chemical". It tastes poisonous.
11:20am (T+0:20)
Very sweaty palms. Quicker but otherwise same as MDMA.
11:30am (T+0:30)
Pupils highly dilated, first effects become very obvious. There is no denying that we are high.reindeer poop scooper
Visuals are strikingly similar to the come up of an MDMA high. Lights sources become brighter and yet get a little hazy around the edges. Bright colors become more alive. Our lava lamp looks very very cool. Unfortunately, this is where the visuals stop. There are no more visual alterations throughout the entire experience.
11:40am (T+0:40)
There's a body buzz. Similar in presentation to the MDMA body buzz, but not nearly as enjoyable. If one can describe the MDMA body buzz as if ripples of joy were penetrating the skin and sinking deep into the flesh, then MBDB seems to have a warm fuzzy feeling only a few millimeters below the skin. If I had to scale it, I would say the buzz is 25% as enjoyable as what it is on MDMA.reindeer poop scooper
There is a bit of an unpleasant cold sweat going on, we are cold, but sweating a bit under the arms and at the temples.reindeer poop scooper
Simply put, MDMA gives you a swift kick in the ass after an hour. MBDB grows on you over the period of 40 minutes. MBDB will not surprise anyone.
12:00pm (T+1:00)
Nystagmus kicks in, pretty similar to a high dose of MDMA. Very nice.
Jaw clenching kicks in, worse than a high dose of MDMA. Very unpleasant.
There are some empathetic qualities, but they seem to be a lot more introspective. I would find it very hard to use this under therapy. Its easy to reflect, but hard to communicate. There is just no desire to talk, but I feel closer to my wife just stretched out in the same couch with our legs interlocked. There is no desire to get up or do anything except stay put, relax, and trip. Very enjoyable.reindeer poop scooper
This is where the trip plateaued.reindeer poop scooper
2:30pm (T+4:30)
Very slow come down. Mild headache kicks in. We notice that we are extremely hungry not having eaten all day. We had an afterglow until about 8:00pm (T+10:00).
Conclusion:
MBDB is a fun research chemical! It has an enjoyability of its own, but nowhere near as fun as MDMA, and seems to have a much lower potential for abuse. I would say its worth trying out at least once if you can, but I wouldn't go out of my way to get some again.
MBDB shares many similarities with MDMA, but it absolutely does not work as a substitute. I find it hard to classify it as an MDMA analogue. Anyone expecting an MDMA like experience will probably be very disappointed. Yes, the experience is similar, but only the side effects are virtually identical (nystagmus, body load, clenching). All of the fun properties of MDMA (body buzz, empathy, mild visuals, sounds and smells) are either very diminished or simply not there...
[ 29 April 2002: Message edited by: Catch-22 ]

[morninggloryseed]

Very nice report, but I am going to put it into the trip reports forum.

[PHD]

Excellent!
By the way, I edited your original title since this thread got moved into Trip Reports. Feel free to modify, I just thought "Not a substitute for MDMA" summed up your post pretty well.

[PlurredChemistry]

Well written, but what is Nystagmus?
Thanks!

[ntgn]

found it unremarkable alone- like a sterile zombie wannabe mdma type thing, very sedatting- not much fun...
Synergy need some mo exploring- it sssssseeeems ttttthhhhhaattt Methyl-J open's this busy dissacociative space when combined with PEA's a Typts- very very intriguing these combos.....

[AstridAsteroid]

Nystagmus is those rock ass eye wigglys you get when you've taken X. :D

[5-HT2]

Unlike most people, I found that MBDB gave me all of the empathogenic "rolling" feelings; albeit I only tried it one time. However, like other people, I also have less coordination and feel more sluggish due to the lesser dopaminergic action of MBDB as compared to MDMA.
---5HT-2

[5ht]

morningglory, catch: thanks for the edit and moving the post to its appropriate place. In the future I will know where to post.
5HT-2: great nickname. :)
[ 29 April 2002: Message edited by: 5ht ]

[nickthecheese]

Thanks for this report, And for clarifying for what this was :)

[5ht]

Just remembered something noteworthy regarding this report. My wife had a hard case of insomnia that night and was able to sleep for 2 hours only. I, on the other hand, took some 5htp and Calcium tablets before hitting the sack and slept like a baby! :)

[Murple]

DId you notice that it was a strongly sedating experience, unlike MDMA? It seems MBDB is the opposite of a stimulant, without being a hypnotic. I found that annoying.
It also gave me a hangover, which no other MDMA-class psychedelics ever have.

[5ht]

Murple:
Actually, I read your report on Erowid before hand, and I was already expecting it to be quite sedating. On a side note, I thought your MBDB report was the cleanest of them all. Albeit, out of grand total of 5 reports, that's not saying much! :)
Seriously, I think I must have plateaued at a different peak than you did. Yes, I did find it sedating, but at one point when I got up to go pee, I couldn't stop my legs from jerking / tapping on the bathroom tile floor. The feeling was sedating, but the body load was amazingly high.
I can only suppose this has to do with the small difference in ammount each of us took.
You dosed at 2.33mg/kg
I dosed at 2.85mg/kg
*shrug*
Either that, or you're just more tolerant to phenethylamines than me.
Anywho... Anyone who hasn't yet read Murple's report on Erowid should do it now (http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php3?ID=10514).

[Murple]

Oh I dont think I'm more tolerant... the effects were pretty heavy, its just that unlike MDMA and most related drugs, it did not have any sort of stimulating feel to it. Perhaps this is due to it not being an amphetamine. Im curious if it would be more sedating or less in higher doses, but I havent really wanted to try taking more after my first experience.
Dont get me wrong though... while it felt sedating rather than stimulating, it was still an intense experience comparable to MDMA (though qualitatively pretty different).

[5-HT2]

Murple, you are correct. MBDB has MUCH less dopaminergic and adrenergic activity than MDMA because it is not an amphetamine. Extending the chain by another carbon pretty much kills stimulant activity. Thus, the peripheral dopamine rush does not counteract the predictably sedating effects of the serotonin rush (serotonin has an inhibitory effect in most of the brain). Usually when I am peaking on MDMA I tend to feel a bit sedated; with MBDB, this sedation was much stronger and there was no amphetamine back-end kick like with MDMA.
---5HT-2

[5ht]

5HT-2:
I have a feeling this is going to be a dumb question, but... Do you suppose that a combination with a dopamine/adrenaline agonist substance would do the trick of raising MBDB closer to an MDMA-like experience?
If so, what would you suppose could do the trick? A straight dopaminergic agent (maybe coke, dexedrine, Benzedrine?) or past that to a more adrenergic agent (like PPAs, ephedrine, epinephrine)?
BTW: I'm no doctor (actually, I'm a computer scientist) but I find these tinkerings fascinating!

[5-HT2]

5ht, probably the best thing to mix with MBDB to approximate MDMA would be a low dose of methamphetamine (enough to equal the time course of the MBDB). However, this would bring back much of the neurotoxicity as well.
---5HT-2

[Murple]

Methylone (aka 3,4-methylenedioxymethcathinone) is sort of the opposite of MBDB. If MBDB is like MDMA stripped of dopaminergic effects, methylone is like MDMA stripped of most serotonergic effects. It has all the physical sensations of MDMA, and produces an MDMA-like euphoria, but isn't particularly psychedelic or emotionally opening. It was a hell of alot of fun, wish I had a stash of it around... People who mixed it with MBDB reported that the combo mimicked MDMA almost perfectly. I never got the chance to try the mix, but it makes sense.

[5-HT2]

[quote]Originally posted by Murple:
Methylone (aka 3,4-methylenedioxymethcathinone) is sort of the opposite of MBDB.
Ah, how could I forget good old methylone!
[quote]If MBDB is like MDMA stripped of dopaminergic effects, methylone is like MDMA stripped of most serotonergic effects.
What about potential neurotoxicity?
[quote]It has all the physical sensations of MDMA, and produces an MDMA-like euphoria, but isn't particularly psychedelic or emotionally opening. It was a hell of alot of fun, wish I had a stash of it around... People who mixed it with MBDB reported that the combo mimicked MDMA almost perfectly. I never got the chance to try the mix, but it makes sense.
Indeed it does. I would like to know what the comedown/side effects were like from this combo as compared to MDMA. A friend and I were going to buy methylone and MBDB to try this out, but we never got around to it due to the cost. I may still have access to some methylone but I am unconvinced that it is worth it. Murple, do you think methylone is good enough on its own, or only when mixed with something serotoninergic? Right now I'm thinking 2C-I would probably be a better investment.
---5HT-2

[NSU]

So you guys think combining MBDB and 2C-I would be a good combo?/
I have yet to experiment with MBDB but from all i've read it would make sense combining it with 2C-I.

[PHD]

[morninggloryseed]

[quote]Originally posted by Murple:
methylone is like MDMA stripped of most serotonergic effects. It has all the physical sensations of MDMA, and produces an MDMA-like euphoria, but isn't particularly psychedelic or emotionally opening.
The hell it isn't. My last experience with methylone showed me it can be EVERY bit as psychedelic and emotionally opening, when used in the right setting, as MDMA is/can be. Taking it in the desert remains up there as one of the most beautiful experiences of my life. A trip report on this experience can be found by following the link in my signiture.

[Murple]

Methylone can be quite psychedelic... I had a very profound experience on a low dose, its on Erowid with a name like "Watering Plants" or something... but compared to MDMA, methylone isnt very psychedelic. You have to put way more effort into getting a good trip out of it.

[morninggloryseed]

I agree it may take a little more effort, but the experience can be every bit as psychedelic as MDMA.

[roliepolie]

[Don't hint about those things. -C22]
I'm not going to be the poor fucker that discovers the LD50 for this though, sorry. :)
[ 17 October 2002: Message edited by: Catch-22 ]

[Meilikhios]

[First point responded to previous poster. -C22]
2ndly ingesting dopamine is useless as it will not reach your brain (dopamine can't pass the brain blood barrier bevause of its highly polar 2 hydroxyls). Besides in order to achieve some kind of MDMA-like feeling what is needed is a release of dopamine in the synaptic clefts, not a surge in its disponibility like you suggest.
The interesting idea wd be to combine MBDB with a dopamine releaser such as methamphetamine as has been suggested to see what wd come out.
[ 17 October 2002: Message edited by: Catch-22 ]
[ 17 October 2002: Message edited by: Meilikhios ]

[nada rylnym]

MBDB + 2C-I is a worthy but expensive combo. if you have both on hand its one thing, going out of your way to try it is another. my suggestion is to stick to low dosages of both, like 180mg MBDB + 15mg 2CI

[NSU]

Agree. I have combined 225 mg of MBDB and 25 mg of 2c-i and it was a very peaceful, soothing experience, the MBDB adding a cozy feeling to the 2c-i signature(for me) warm feeling. Strangely enough, at much lower dosages (~140mg), i found MBDB alone to be more intoxicating, that kind of drunken-feeling intoxication...

[ntgn]

Ya I was on 250mg MDBD and snorted 8mg 2ci - very odd thing - became quite dissascociated and with eye's close felt very transported - layers of reality and imensions were played with me - very intriguin...
On it's own tho I find MDBD to be overpriced garbaged - next time round it'l be 125/g which is feckin outrageous since you need a good 200-250+ for a dose!
MDBD should sell for $20-$30/g, that's what it's worth IMO - fun stuff and very pleasant, but lacking the massive euphoria transcendence and magic of MDMA....

[nephil]

Glad I've had the opportunity to read this, thanks for the bump!

[Mahan Atma]

I don't think much of MBDB. I combined 150 mg with 150 mg of methylone. It wasn't terribly enjoyable, and I got a terrible headache.
Then again I never found E to be a tremendous experience either; even at 200+ mg, it's nice, enjoyable, but not profound/earth-shaking. Barely worth the $20 or so, I'd say.

[ms. nomer]

I must have missed this report the first time around - nice report, and great follow-up discussion.
5ht - have you tried this again since your original post, or did you feel it wasn't worth the effort?

[Splatt]

Very good report.
This thread has lots of good information!

[wombat66]

I've tasted MBDB 3 times now, each time at around 200mg followed 1-3 hours later by either 2C-I, 2C-C or both, plus maybe a bit more MBDB. Wonderful experiences. The 2Cs coming on during the MBDB plateau felt ecstatic with the added pleasure of beautiful visuals, rainbows beaming from every light source. Late evening dog walk in the park was like a trip to paradise. The downside for me was a somewhat restless and anxious last few hours before reaching baseline. Next time I'll take the 2Cs first.
This does make for a rather expensive experiment (no regrets though).

[moniorojo]

I've had MBDB a couple of times (100-200 mgs). Not at all like MDMA.
It is relaxing and good for conversation. It has the empathy thing but instead of stimulation it comes with relaxation. A therapy tool. Good to talk to your wife or whoever else about issues to be solved or such things in a calm way.