EMM any experiences?

[smartshop]

Recently EMM has become available in dutch smartshops. Does anyone have any experience with this substance? It is a homologue of tma-2 but does not have psychedelic effects like that substance it is said. Probably more like mdx type drugs. It is being sold in doses of 170 mg or so. Pihkal states: "(with 50 mg) There were no effects". Anyone have any more info or experiences to share?
If not maybe soon i'll be able to talk to some people who have tried. It sells well but no one has returned to tell what it was like.
Wonder how long it is going to take until this one will be banned...

[Blowmonkey]

Yes, I have taken it (the product called "Explosion"). Supposedly I took 60 mg's of the 180 mg dose, there were noticeable effects, rather strong actually for such a little bit more if you go by the highest in-active PiHKAL dose..

"Somehow", I doubt it's EMM FWIW, dutch smartshops are completely unreliable and can be compared to online vendors that promote their ware as if it's candy. They are in this for the money, a quick fix, completely without thinking of the possible consequences it might have (you'd guess they've learned from their mistakes)..

I hope GC/MS will tell us shortly what the actual substance is. It's definitely an "entactogen" and the FLEA entry is one that closely resembles it.. Not to say it is FLEA, but you could compare it to one another.

[BingeBoy]

^^
Do you think it's a MDXX substance , could be possible right? , I heard that the tube it comes in say's something about vanilla room odoriser so kinda dodgy innit? What did it taste like? And Mdma can be synthed from vanilline , maybe this has something to do with it.
Sry If don't make any sense just thinking out loud.

[droppedcivic]

Originally posted by BingeBoy
^^
Do you think it's a MDXX substance , could be possible right? , I heard that the tube it comes in say's something about vanilla room odoriser so kinda dodgy innit? What did it taste like? And Mdma can be synthed from vanilline , maybe this has something to do with it.
Sry If don't make any sense just thinking out loud.

nope

[Blowmonkey]

It tastes utterly disgusting, I believe the "room-odoriser part" is to avoid getting legal problems and/or to mask scent & taste of the product.. The taste can be compared to GBL or 1,4 BDO, just plain nasty.

I don't think it's an MDXX substance, although I've only tried MDMA, MDA AND MDEA, I know that the characteristics vary too much to be an MDXX substance, besides, it would be a foolish thing to do concerning the legality (not that this is so smart, but yeah).

[fastandbulbous]

If the smell actually comes from the drug, it can be a reasonable guide if you have decent odour discrimination (generally only people who don't smoke have a decent sense of smell)

4-Methoxy compounds generally have a licquorice/aniseed smell
3,4-dimethoxy compounds are closest to vanilla
3,4-methylenedioxy have a warm, spicey sasparilla smell.

Then again, it may be as Blowmonkey states, something added later to mask the original smell. Don't think it'll be FLEA though, as N-hydroxy compound aren't the most stable compound, and can slowly start to decompose to replace the hydroxy group with a hydrogen atom. That'll form MDMA, and openly selling that is a 'go to jail, do not pass go, do not collect 200 pounds' situation (On the Home Office site, theres an article about somebody who made that mistake while manufacturing N-hydroxy DOB; final verdict:- guilty)

[Jamshyd]

If it is truly EMM, then it is not an MDx compound. EMM is basically TMA-2 with an ethoxy group instead of the methoxy group at the 2 position.

Why pick EMM (an amphetamine) from the vast majortiy of potential phenethylamines is beyond me, so I agree with the suspicion that it is not, in fact, EMM.

[morninggloryseed]

Well, many of the 2Cs with a 2-ethoxy substitution (tweetos) are active and seemingly interesting. From the reports, few retain the full psychedelic picture however and instead provide mildier experiences. Most are also much less active per milligram as the prototype. It is possible that 2-EtO-TMA-2 is active, and potentially interesting, at 150mg to 200mg.

[Blowmonkey]

Originally posted by Jamshyd
Why pick EMM (an amphetamine) from the vast majortiy of potential phenethylamines is beyond me, so I agree with the suspicion that it is not, in fact, EMM.

My initial response as well, "why pick something in-active when there are plenty of other active substances to choose from..?" But it could very well be EMM, I just have a sneaking suspicion it isn't. Especially with the fuck-ups concerning 2C-T-2 and 4-MTA in the nineties, I really don't trust smartshops anymore when it comes to things like this..

Guess only time will tell.

[smartshop]

Well i agree smartshops are in this for the money. I used to work in three different ones, and it differes a lot how far shop owners are willing to go. Seedier shops still sell gbl under the counter. There is a group of smarthop owners that have come together and have put up guidelines. These are the more responsible shops. If you want to work there you have to do a course (ok it anly covers the basics, but it is a good start). Actually i used to work with one student anthropology, two students in neuroscience, and myself (neuroscience). The anthropology student had been to south america and had been with shamans. One guy published an article about the effects of mdma on executive functions. All very committed and well read people. If you came to our shop and had any questions you would leave with the best iformation, or at least some directions on where too look. These smarthops never sold "blue mystic"(2-ct-7) for instance because the policy was to no longer sell synthetics. (This was after mbdb 2-cb and 2ct2 had been banned. But even when selling these substances it was done in a responsible way. 2-cb was sold in five mg. tablets, and always with an information pamflet and instructions from the seller. One was recommended to start with one or two tablets. Other less responsible shop owners sold 20 or 25 mg capsules. This lead to some bad trips and caused the ban on 2-cb.) Maybe that policy is now being re-thought, to make some money.
I do not remember however that mbdb, 2-cb, 2ct2, or 2ct7, where ever sold represented as anything else. So i do believe it is EMM that is being sold. But i also wonder why make a substance that is being described as inactive in PIHKAL? If there are too many doubts i could have it tested. But for now i have no reason not to believe the claims.
Blowmonkey, can you tell us a litlle bit more about the experience? What did it feel like? How long did it last?
I must say even tma-2 felt slightly empathetic ( as does mescaline) so why not EMM. You don't know untill you try...

[Ximot]

it strikes me as odd that 60mg had quite notcieable effects when 50 didn't have any. but then 15mg of 2cc can go totally unnoticed while 25 will not. There's a line somewhere and once it is crossed . . .

[Blowmonkey]

Originally posted by smartshop
I do not remember however that mbdb, 2-cb, 2ct2, or 2ct7, where ever sold represented as anything else. So i do believe it is EMM that is being sold.

It's a great read, from Murple; the Sulfurous Samadhi, under "2C-T-2 in the Netherlands":

Another curious situation arose from the earlier confusion as to the identity of the drug in the pills. Even after lab analyses had been done, and after statements had been issued about the true identity of the pills, some shops continued to sell the pills as 2C-T-7. In some cases, these shops would be selling identical pills as both 2C-T-2 and 2C-T-7, side by side, oblivious to the fact that they were both the same pills. And as if this were not enough, there is yet another twist to the confusion surrounding 2C-T-2 in the Netherlands. A synthetic amphetamine known as 4-MTA (para-methylthioamphetamine) was sold under the brand name S5 for a while in the Dutch smartshops. Structurally related to the toxic amphetamine PMA (para-methoxyamphetamine), 4-MTA was linked to several deaths and was removed from the market. The laboratory which analyzed the 2C-T-2 pills for Conscious Dreams also analyzed three batches of S5 tablets. While the first two batches were in fact 4-MTA, the third batch was found to contain 2C-T-2.

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/2ct7...story.shtml#NL

See what I mean?

Blowmonkey, can you tell us a litlle bit more about the experience? What did it feel like? How long did it last?

It's hard to describe, amphetamine/MDMA like, but less, less stimulating, less SERT activity, more DAT and NET activity (but my guess can be completley wrong, lol).. Rapid activity, active within 5-10 minutes of swallowing the stuff I was near peaking, which lasted for ~2 hours, then slowly a decline in effects (total duration is ~6-7 hours).. Here I re-dosed, which has minimal effect, it just stretches out the duration, while not really doing anything for the intensity (maybe the first 5 minutes after re-dosing). Duration was rather long, but I blame my re-dosing the first time around. I had much trouble sleeping because of a racing heart, which only became apparent later on (after the main effects had worn off; that's after 3-4 hours), severely dry mouth (it's a diuretic) and just all-round restlessness. I had a bit of trouble with vasoconstriction in my extremeties (hands and feet were pretty cold), but overall it's physically benign compared to other stims..

So i do believe it is EMM that is being sold. But i also wonder why make a substance that is being described as inactive in PIHKAL? If there are too many doubts i could have it tested. But for now i have no reason not to believe the claims.

The GC/MS is on it's way.. We'll know shortly. I'm doubting this because of the bad reputation the smartshops have build up plus the fact that I get people telling me (there's someone PRETTY reliable among them) that it couldn't be EMM. Plus, even if it IS EMM, there isn't much known about human pharmacology, meaning it's a brand new "research chemical" which has been brought on the market for mass consumption, which is bad anyways.. I hope to drag some big smartshop names through the mud the up-coming few weeks, looking forward to it.. Fucking idiots are ruining it for everyone else.

[Jamshyd]

Oh I am very glad to hear there is a GC/MS being done on it

It could be EMM. But from what you describe, I wouldn't be very surprised if it turned out to be a Piperazine or a mixture of piperazines (Like that X4 stuff).

[marklar_the_23rd]

could it be MEM ? tho it does say MEM lasts 10+ hours... but i've never ever gotten a RC to last as long as pikhal states or even similar effects (4ho-dipt at 20mg was nice but no +4)

[morninggloryseed]

MEM is fully active at 20mg to 40mg. If it were MEM, the 170mg dosages being sold would result in some pretty frightening experiences. 170mg would be enough for six or seven people.

[Ximot]

Well, I just went ahead and talked to a source (no worries, I won't say!) to find out more...

here is what I got, quoted verbatim: ¨

One unit is a tube filled with 4ml Explosion. Content: 180 mg EMM
(4,5-dimethoxy-2-ethoxy amfetamine). One unit is good for 4 til 5
hours. At the come back from 1 unit you can take a half unit what
give the same effects as the first.


I have also spoken to one person who has actually used this material and she enjoyed it thoroughly. Did compare it to good ole E. All the rage in NL at the moment it would appear. Only a question of time before it is scheduled. Side effects and that remains to be seen . . . but said person had a wonderful time with no adverse effects the one time she had it. Which means nothing, of course.

[Mind_Movie]

it ain't EMM, blowmonkey will provide you with more info cos i'm teh lazy

[Blowmonkey]

^ Yeah, it was methylone.

Explosion consists of methylone ( 2-methylamino-1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl) propan-1-one), 97.8% pure, the other chemical is 2.2% triphenylphosphine.

Here are the GC/MS results (all thanks to Vague!):

GC:




Peak1:


Peak2:


Peakreport:


Red = explosion - Black = methylone.

[smartshop]

The information leaflet of explosion (liquid) stated 170 mg EMM and mentioned the taste is to make unknown dosing in someone's drink impossible. Probalby the substance just has a nasty taste and they are making a reason up for it being so. Now also a pill version is available from the same guy i think. I haven't seen that product.
Conscious dreams is one of the better shops i used to work and in their own product line (mbdb, 2-cb, 2-ct2) they have always been conscientious. But now they are selling products of other manufacturers, so there is less cetainty about the contents. And FLOSS (a group of smarthops) has called a meeting to talk about explosion. (This was also the group of smarthops that forbid their members to sell 4-MTA and 2-ct-7). Probaly explosion will only have a month or two on the market anyway, before the goverment intervenes.

It sounds as if a beta-blocker for the latter part of the comedown might be a good idea (this helps also with 4methyl-aminorex).

[smartshop]

Methylone it is then!
Well at least i will stock up on this then as reports about this substance are pretty good. Too bad this will make an end to methylone in europe probably pretty soon. Really a shame

[smartshop]

Too bad the test did not have EMM in it to compare. I am no chemist, but what is the chance of this still being something else then methylone?

[smartshop]

Safety (MSDS) data for triphenylphosphine
Hazard: harmful Hazard: harmful in the environment

Toxicology

Harmful if swallowed. May cause sensitization. May be harmful if inhaled or absorbed through the skin. Eye, skin and respiratory irritant.

Toxicity data

ORL-RAT LD50 700 mg kg-1
SKN-RBT LD50 > 5000 mg kg-1
IHL-RAT LC50 1135 ppm/4h
ORL-MUS LD50 1000 mg kg-1

ok how much should one worry about this?

[Mind_Movie]

edit?

[mik82]

The very fact that the stuff contains triphenylphosphine in a pretty large quantity would discourage me from taking it. I'm sure at that level its not really going to do any harm but it's not something I'd want to ingest regularly.

[psy-marshal]

Is triphenylphosphine a reaction biproduct or an additive in this case (based on specculation only of course). And if it´s an additive, why? I´m too lazy at the moment to look up what it is/what it´s used for!