I always prefer norcos 10/325 because of the less APAP. No kidding though, ive met a bunch of different people who even prefer lorcets which are 10/650 because they like the APAP. People who take like 20 a day too. They say its makes the high better. I don't understand it, anyone else ever heard of this?
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APAP works with the hydrocodone to produce a greater analgesic effect...so in that sense it is a better painkiller, but im thinking APAP shouldn't effect the euphoric effects that greatly.

And taking 650mg of tylenol, 20 times per day is going to dead your liver FAST.
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I prefer the Lorcet high to the norco high. Yes, I understand that it is the same ingredients sans the different tylenol content. But I always prefered Lorcet even over Lortab, which is 650 vs. 500mg. I feel higher. Sometimes I will take just tylenol and kinda get an "aura" for lack of a better term. Just a strange feeling when the APAP kicks in. This is more pronounced with Lorcet than any other hydrocodone preparation. I even know people who take extra tylenol with their norcos or even OxyContin to recreate that feeling.
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Yeah I try and tell em, but they say they like it.
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I personally don't like 10/325 over 7.5/750s, because the analgesia, IMO, sucks when they are both compared.
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I agree with ya'll on this one, though I am willing to bet that many would disagree thoroughly. I feel I get a stronger all-around effect from the extra Acetaminophen in a Lortab or a Lorcet, and I prefer the Lortab over Norco because I honestly feel that they work better for me.
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I've never had any liver tests done in my life, but I do believe some damage had to have been done over 10 years of Lorcet abuse. Kinda makes me sick just thinking about it. I would take 6 at a time and redosing around 3 times a day. No, it's not good for your body.
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For the first two years I was prescribed norco for nerve pain I took tylenol with it so I'm will you all. If someone is maxing out APAP daily, then norcos make sense but aren't necessarily preferred. 40mg of hydrocodone from vicodin and you're at the daily limit while its 120 via norco.

I think some of this could be psychological- pills with more apap are larger, so that may have a subconscious impact on expectations. If you slightly feel the apap you associate that with the hydrocodone effevt thru classical conditioning, etc.

APAP does add to the analgesia but it won't potentiate it or contribue to the sedation or euphoria... hence the psychological rationale.

Topics like this remind me of the complexity of the relationship our minds have with our drug consumption.
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That's quite possible Cane. I've had a lot of experience with Lorcet, Lortab, Norco and Vicodin. I've always prefered the ones with more tylenol. Esp. the Watson 503's vs. Mallinkrodts. I know people often say this out of ignorance, but it seems to be so true.
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Thirteen grams of APAP in one day? As far as I know, that amount of APAP is lethal...

As for my own preference regarding more/less tylenol, I have not noticed any increase in recreational effects through ingesting more APAP. I am actually as puzzled as the OP that folks seem to get higher with more tylenol.
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Frankly, my vote goes toward norco. I don't like the feeling of taking all of the apap and being worried about my liver. I believe norcos are a bit more costly but I'm usually willing. You can always take additional apap if needed.
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i take apap with oxy to sleep better. But otherwise im just looking for a bigger dose of whatever drug.
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theres an tyloneol high...i kinda of like it...but i never take more that 4 5/500 pills.
but i like my vics anyway really ;]
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Smart man :-)
This is exactly how it works. I have just finished reading a report where the nature of placebos was examined, and colored pills work better than white ones, larger moreso than smaller, etc etc
So much of this is in our heads. It's amazing that people actually believe that the same drug is weaker in a different brand (it isn't). That really says something about how much our mind is involved in health and sickness, and of course, pain perception
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Tylenol high? Lol.:-)

You have a low opiate tolerance and obviously are unsure of what an opiate high is like..
Tylenol does not get you high.
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^^No. I do get a strange sensation when I just take plain tylenol, when they finally kick in. Not a high but just a strange feeling. It's synergistic with the hydrocodone, I swear. I'm sure some people dont get that feeling and dont understand. It's a sensation in the back of your throat, letting you know your Lorcets are just about to kick in. Great feeling. Not that this is anything to brag about, but I have taken more than 13g of APAP during the height of my hydro addiction. No side effects whatsoever, but like i said before, I haven't had a liver test. Not a smart thing, but addiction drives people to do some stupid shit.
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I have taken vicodin, lortabs and norcos for so many years - something like 19 or 20, and as my system changed, so did the effects of the various brands. The dominant characteristic became toxicity rather than anything else. I used to prefer the brands with more tylenol because they seemed more euphoric and effective. Now, anything but 10/325 norcos just tend to make me feel toxic, as though the extra tylenol has built up over the years.

It tends to rule out the placebo effect, as people don't normally experience toxicity and nausea so much from the placebo effect as placebo seems occur primarily with feelings a person wishes to experience rather than just habitual ones. Over the years I have come to the conclusion that one's chemical system state has more to do with how a given brand affects one (me in particular) rather than pill strength or placebo effect. This is especially noticeable in amphetamine pills rather than opiates, as opiate differences seem very subtle to me. With amphetamines (dex in particular), I can take the exact same pill - same brand, same strength - and experience extremely different negative side effects and toxicity as well as energy and euporia levels from day to day, which would seem to definitely rule out placebo effect and brand variations.

The chemical balance of the human body can be very diverse from day to day - I don't know why more people are not aware of the difference this makes in the effects of the ingestion of opiates and other drugs.
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Basic physiology, biological function, and plain old state of health will all absolutely effect the efficacy of any medication.

As far as the topic of the efficacy of different brands of the same drug, I have never been one to throw a fit over whether or not my Lortabs are Watson brand or not, because I cannot tell a difference between one brand of drug and the next, generic or brand name. But one thing we must remember, is that each manufacturer is required to use a slightly different formula for their version of drug X, so no two pills from two different manufacturer's will be exactly the same, because those two manufacturer's will have used slightly different binders and/or fillers, or maybe a different process in making the tablets/capsules/etc. However, the amount of active ingredient will be exactly the same. This could be taken into consideration when comparing two versions of the same medication side by side.
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Yeah. I guess that could cause pills from 2 different manufacturers to have a slightly different feel.
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are lorcets the big ass blue ones? I dont know if its in my head, but i dislike those because it seems the powder is more sticky, like it clumps up on the inside of my septum more than any other hydro I've done
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snorting anything with APAP is just plain bad.

why not go for something that lacks the APAP -- at least you will have less bulk to snort and more chemical for fun?
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My vote is for the Norco 10/325. My vote might be a little bias though cause I've been scripted them for 6 yrs..
I love the Norco..:-)
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I'd say placebo is not so much what one wishes to experience but what you consciously and subconsciously expect to experience- if you believe strongly enough that the fake bud advertised in High Times will make you high, it will. If you believe strongly enough that another drug will make you nauseas or whatever, it will.

I was a little confused by your use of the term 'toxicity' so I am not sure I understood what you meant. I usually think of toxicity as organ, tissue or cell damage. So what did you mean when you said preparations with more APAP made YOU feel toxic?

I absolutely agree that the same drug can affect people differently at different times but I wouldn't attribute that to their chemical balances as much to many other factors like set and setting... if you're tired, hungry, depressed, anxious, alone, at a party and especially how you expect the drug to affect you. You can't make a massive dose of morphine feel like a sugar pill, of course but you can make a sugar pill feel like a massive dose of morphine if you expect it to.

**I really hope I am not coming across where different than I intend. I'm not at all trying to say you're wrong with that you're saying, especially since most of it is you sharing your experience. Some of the things I just really didn't understand, especially what you meant by toxicity and chemical balances.
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No Cane, you aren't coming across in a bad way at all. By the same token, I hope you didn't think I wasn't supporting your assessment of placebo effect as an important and all too often common reaction to taking a medication. I think placebo effect is something that all people taking drugs have to live with - some are just less aware of how much that phenomenon affects everyone and how often.

What I was referring to by toxicity is the fact that sometimes hydrocodone and even more often, amphetamines makes me and others sick in various ways, and doesn't happen often enough to most people to be considered placebo effect. In other words, being sick like your system was poisoned is the last thing that you would expect to happen. It has happened to me, to my wife, and to several others that I personally know of. As all the specifics are the same, the physical and chemical state of the body is the obvious reason. Even if mental state has an effect, we know that mental state changes body chemistry, so basically body chemistry is still the logical reason.

Toxicity to my body usually takes the form of burning and unpleasant nervous system tingling for lack of a better description. Like if you were to drink nothing but grapefruit juice for weeks and your body became so acidic that you felt toxic and uncomfortable as one aspect. Nausea is occasionally another. The dose is low, so there is no real reason for the nausea. By the same token, I have some Watson blue 540's, which are generic hydro 10/500s. Most people love these and many prefer them over anything else. They make me both nauseous and feeling like I drank hydrochloric acid more often than not, and it made me wonder if the body stored tylenol in the system over time like lead or asbestos because at times I can't even get myself to look at or consider taking anything with much apap in it.

This didn't use to be the case. Apap never used to bother me although I never took over about 2500 mg a day, but I took it almost daily for years and years. Now anything over 300 or 400 mg at a dose makes me cringe to look at and sick if I take it. All my liver tests have been fine for the last 10 years though. I have no idea what causes this.

I have noticed similar feelings from taking oxycodone every 3 or 4 hours for chronic pain for months on end. Eventually my system feels like a toxic waste dump and just want to quit and clean all that junk out of my system. Maybe my system is just overloaded with all kinds of drug poisons, as I have been taking lots of stuff for lots of years for chronic pain.
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Usually I find no noticable difference in brands and generics but with hydrocodone I've always found mallinkrodt hydrocodone preparations to be less desired. Maybe the binders and fillers break down at different rates than other generic and brand names (like qualitest and watson). Dunno.:-)
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