Socialism at work

[SpiralOut]

Ah, socialism. How great you are for the people.

Demonstrations by Unions Against Government Austerity Measures Hobble Transit Services, Spark Clashes With Police

ATHENS—Flights were grounded and trains suspended amid a nationwide general strike Thursday, as Greek police fought running street battles with
anarchist youths in fresh and violent signs of anger at the government's austerity plans.

Unions called a strike to protest wage and benefit cuts being put in place to trim Greece's swollen budget deficit as the country draws closer to a financial reckoning. An estimated 50,000 people took to the streets.

Greece must refinance a chunk of its giant debt next month, and Greek leaders are leaning hard on counterparts in richer European states to provide some measure of support that could ease those debt sales. Eyes are on European Union finance ministers' meetings early next week.

In the capital city Thursday, masked and hooded youths went well beyond protest—throwing rocks and bottles, smashing shop windows, setting alight trash cans and burning at least one private car. Police fired tear gas and detained more than a dozen people.

There were also separate clashes outside the Greek parliament, Agence France-Presse reported. Greece has a history of sometimes-violent anarchist protesters, though they are well outside the mainstream.

Greece's two umbrella unions, for private- and public-sector workers, called the strike to protest the €4.8 billion ($6.55 billion) package of spending cuts and tax increases that the government announced March 3, which was voted into law days later. The communist-backed PAME union held a separate protest that drew an estimated 15,000 people.

"There is a big turnout today and that shows people are concerned," said Dimitris Papageorgiou, a 49-year-old worker at the Bank of Greece. "Today's protest is because of the austerity measures. Why do the people always have to pay? Who is at fault? It's the foreign speculators and the useless policies of previous governments."

Recent polls show that the Greek public is divided over the austerity plan. While the public opposes some measures, such as an increase in Greece's fuel and value-added taxes, analysts say there is a broad acceptance that something must be done.

"No one really expects the measures to be withdrawn. They were adopted by the government to avoid even worse consequences," said Lefteris Eleftheriadis, 48, a biologist who works in Greece's agriculture ministry and participated in Thursday's protest.

The strike affected public transport, government ministries and state-owned companies. All flights into and out of the country were grounded and all ferry and rail services suspended.

On the streets of Athens Thursday, normal workday activity was muted. Street lights and road signs were festooned with strike posters.

Usual morning news shows on local television were replaced with alternative programming. Many businesses were shut amid fear of violence, and police blocked main thoroughfares around the city center.

Just off the city's central square, a group of about 200 police and fire officials also staged a sympathy protest, challenging the government to fulfill its pre-election promises to protect workers' salaries.

Under pressure from the EU and financial markets, Greece's socialist government last week presented the latest in a series of austerity packages to trim the budget deficit to 8.7% of gross domestic product this year, from an estimated 12.7% last year.

Among other things, the package raises Greece's top value-added tax rate to 21% from 19%, freezes public-sector pensions, cuts civil-service entitlements and bonus pay, and raises taxes on fuel, alcohol and cigarettes.

The general strike follows several days of escalating labor actions by a variety of smaller unions.

Patchwork Pension Plan Adds to Greek Debt Woes

ATHENS — Vasia Veremi may be only 28, but as a hairdresser in Athens, she is keenly aware that, under a current law that treats her job as hazardous to her health, she has the right to retire with a full pension at age 50.

“I use a hundred different chemicals every day — dyes, ammonia, you name it,” she said. “You think there’s no risk in that?”

“People should be able to retire at a decent age,” Ms. Veremi added. “We are not made to live 150 years.”

Perhaps not, but it is still difficult to explain to outsiders why the Greek government has identified at least 580 job categories deemed to be hazardous enough to merit retiring early — at age 50 for women and 55 for men.

Greece’s patchwork system of early retirement has contributed to the out-of-control state spending that has led to Europe’s sovereign debt crisis. Its pension promises will grow sharply in coming years, and investors can see the country has not set aside enough to cover those costs, making it harder for Greece to borrow at a reasonable rate.

As a consequence of decades of bargains struck between strong unions and weak governments, Greece has promised early retirement to about 700,000 employees, or 14 percent of its work force, giving it an average retirement age of 61, one of the lowest in Europe.

The law includes dangerous jobs like coal mining and bomb disposal. But it also covers radio and television presenters, who are thought to be at risk from the bacteria on their microphones, and musicians playing wind instruments, who must contend with gastric reflux as they puff and blow.

And Greece may be an early indicator of troubles to come. Bigger countries like Germany, France, Spain and Italy have relied for decades on a munificent state financed by a range of stiff taxes to keep the political peace. Now, governments are being pressed to re-examine their commitments to generous pensions over extended retirements because the downturn has suddenly pushed at least part of these hidden costs to the surface.

The situation in the United States is different but also painful. The government will face its own fiscal reckoning, analysts say, as 78 million baby boomers begin drawing on Social Security and Medicare programs to support them in retirement. Without some combination of higher taxes, benefit reductions or an increase in the retirement age, both programs will run short of money to make their promised payments within the next few decades. And many American states are woefully behind on funding their pension obligations for public employees.

In Europe, the conflict has already erupted on the streets, with workers demanding that generous retirement policies be kept while governments press to pare pensions and raise retirement ages because taxpayers cannot bear any additional weight and creditors will no longer finance excessive borrowing.

The problem goes well beyond how to keep up payments and deal with budget deficits resulting from the financial crisis. Because of generous promises, unfunded pension liabilities in Europe far outweigh the stated debt that governments owe creditors, which have caught Greece and several other weak European nations in a borrowing vise.

According to research by Jagadeesh Gokhale, an economist at the Cato Institute in Washington, bringing Greece’s pension obligations onto its balance sheet would show that the government’s debt is in reality equal to 875 percent of its gross domestic product, which is the broadest measure of a nation’s economic output. That would be the highest debt level among the 16 nations that use the euro, and far above Greece’s official debt level of 113 percent.

Other countries have obscured their total obligations as well. In France, where the official debt level is 76 percent of economic output, total debt rises to 549 percent once all of its current pension promises are taken into account. And in Germany, the current debt level of 69 percent would soar to 418 percent.

Mr. Gokhale, like many other economists, says he believes that this is a more appropriate way to assess a country’s debt level because it underscores the extent to which the cost of providing for rapidly aging populations, if left unchanged, will add to already troubling debt burdens.

“You have to look ahead and see how pension expenditures are rising in comparison to the revenues needed to finance them,” he said. “It’s not just Greece; all major European countries are facing pension shortfalls. It is a very difficult challenge because it involves selling pain to current voters.”

He estimates that to fully finance future pension obligations, the average European country would need to set aside 8 percent of its economic output each year, a practical impossibility given that raising already high taxes so much would impose a crushing economic burden.

Mr. Gokhale has done a similar calculation for the United States and estimates that the truest measure of federal government debt, incorporating Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and other obligations, is $79 trillion, or about 500 percent of the nation’s output. Currently, its public debt is equal to about 60 percent of its domestic output.

Many of these liabilities will not be coming due for decades. But as most developed countries experience having fewer workers to cover pensions and health care bills for the elderly, their ability to borrow more is rapidly approaching its limits.

In its 2009 annual report on Greece, the International Monetary Fund warned that the government’s excessive pension and health payments to the elderly would result in a debt level of 800 percent of its output by 2050 if left unchecked, similar to the figures Mr. Gokhale calculated. That is a theoretical number, of course: international creditors, who are already balking at lending Greece more money, would require changes in government programs well before Athens borrowed that much.

“The pension crisis is the biggest single test of Greece’s willingness to tackle longstanding reform,” said Kevin Featherstone, an expert on the Greek political economy at the London School of Economics. “Any meaningful reform must lead to reduced benefits for workers — the government needs to show that it can overcome union pressure.”

Greece has proposed raising its average retirement age to 63, and that may be just a beginning.

The French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, has met with union leaders and broached the prospect of raising the normal retirement age from 60. Spain has gone further, proposing to raise the retirement age to 67, from 65. In the face of union opposition, however, the government is wavering.

Pensions have become a divisive topic not just among workers and governments, but among governments within Europe. Germany, which has taken politically difficult steps to increase its retirement age to 67 while reducing benefits, is serving as the most stubborn taskmaster on fiscal matters for Greece.

Greece’s pension problem far outweighs the finagling with its accounts that it relied upon in the early 1990s to get its official deficit figures low enough to qualify to join the euro club. A recent report by the European Commission found that the amount Greece spends on pensions and health care for its aging population, if left unchecked, would soar to about 37 percent of its economic output by 2060 from just over 20 percent today, making it the highest level in Europe.

“Projected pension expenditures are expected to double,” said Manos Matsaganis, a professor at the University of Athens and author of numerous papers on Greece’s pension system. “That is unsustainable.” Still, the millions who have come to rely on these payouts will not give up their pensions easily. “Nobody thinks they have to be the one to sacrifice,” Mr. Matsaganis said.

That’s certainly true of Christos Bourdakis, a retired government accountant. Sitting in a dusty union hall in Athens, he is in no mood to offer any concession on his pension, regardless of the severity of the crisis.

He is a full-throated proponent of a system that pays him a yearly gross pension of 30,000 euros, or $41,000, more than he was making when he retired 13 years ago at the age of 60. He has even written a book in defense of it, “The Guide to Granting Civil Service Pensions in Greece.”

“We have to protect our standard of living,” Mr. Bourdakis said. “The pensioners should not have to pay for the crisis created by the bankers.”

(NYT)

[Pander Bear]

socialism at work:

[capstone]

More socialism:

[Jamshyd]

This is a very confusing thread.

Anyway, I do wish that Canadians take inspiration from their Greek counterparts and stop being so submissive to an outrageously incompetent plutocracy.

[Pander Bear]

greeks who think they can work using only half their ass, then retire with a sweet defined-benefits pension need to wake the fuck up.

[Jamshyd]

^ I disagree.

I think that North Americans who think they need to work using an ass and a half then retire with utterly pathetic pensions need to wake the fuck up.

Work in a capitalist world is an evil necessity, not a sacred thing.

But that might be the Mediterranean blood speaking.

[capstone]

This sort of thing is going to become more commonplace as everyone gets pissed about the banker oligarch's collapse of economies, like dominoes....

Then, as pretext, swine and pigs dress up like protesters, and, with masked faces, so no one knows who they are, the jackboots attack their fellow officers. So they can then "disperse" the crowd. They've done this at almost every major protest, its standard operating procedure against the First Amendment, anymore.

These fuckers have planned long ago for what they will do when they finally bankrupt global society. And they want people to attack, and revolutions, so they can protect everyone with incrementally dehumanizing measures.

If you're going to do something, do it right, or not at all. Molotovs only give the stormtroopers ammunition. Think differently, bigger, creatively, and improvisational, because to change this whole global plan fucked plan around, we're going to have to do something that no one has ever done before. They've planned for everything else.

[Pander Bear]

^ I disagree.

The billions in the developing world will happily eat your lunch if you're content to work 35 hours a week, and take 6 weeks of vacation a year. The necessity of being productive if you want to die somewhere other than your desk / the shop floor is a reality.

[ebola?]

I'm going to give up on the project of helping people along in recognizing what socialism is.

Originally Posted by jamshyd

But that might be the Mediterranean blood speaking.

This is more simply explained by you just being correct.

[Shimmer.Fade]

Hey while we are at it, how about a few more examples of socialism in the US!










Yea fuck socialism. We can do it all on our own.

[marsmellow]

More like bad budgeting at work.

By the way, Greece got attacked by naked short sellers, according to the Greek president. Those big banks played a role in this crisis too. They did the same thing to Lehman Brothers. They seem to have their tentacles in every financial crisis around the world.

[Shimmer.Fade]

Bad budgeting? Spending money on education, first responders, and public parks is bad budgeting? Get real... Or are you talking in general about some of the causes of our current financial problems?

[Shimmer.Fade]

Originally Posted by Pander Bear

The billions in the developing world will happily eat your lunch if you're content to work 35 hours a week, and take 6 weeks of vacation a year. The necessity of being productive if you want to die somewhere other than your desk / the shop floor is a reality.

This is funny considering most Germans work a 39 hour work week...not an insignificant portion are working 50-75% shifts. The German worker gets on average about 35 days paid vacation per year, while maintaining a competitive economy. Compare that to an average of 13 days for the average US worker. The stats differ slightly from source to source..but not drastically.

[marsmellow]

Originally Posted by Shimmer.Fade

Bad budgeting? Spending money on education, first responders, and public parks is bad budgeting? Get real... Or are you talking in general about some of the causes of our current financial problems?

I'm talking about Greece.

I'm not against those things you mentioned.

[Jamshyd]

Originally Posted by Pander Bear

The billions in the developing world will happily eat your lunch if you're content to work 35 hours a week, and take 6 weeks of vacation a year. The necessity of being productive if you want to die somewhere other than your desk / the shop floor is a reality.

A reality only in a world whose only norms are work norms. I really do pity North Americans (particularly Canadians). They just don't seem to realize just how exploited they are by the entrepreneurs (and therefore competitors) they elect to rule them (on any level).

[Pander Bear]

are you financially independent of your parents yet, jam?

[Jamshyd]

^ That's beside the point (and unexpectedly [of you] pernicious, tbh). I fully realize that I need to bend over and get raped to survive in Canadian society, despite knowing of better models. That it is "realistic" doesn't make it "right".

To answer your question, I live in their house, but have my own job and pay for most of my expenses.

[Pander Bear]

^ That's beside the point.

And yet I think I just made mine.

Working for what you use isn't bending over and getting raped. Its natural. Greece financed an untenable pensions system with gross inefficiencies by borrowing heaps of money from more productive places, and then falsifying their national books to make it look like they were capable of paying it back.

Its the national equivalent of misreporting your income so you can get a home loan to make improvments to a property, then spending it on food and entertainment while you lay around for 6 months.

That's the greek system.

[Jamshyd]

^ Correction, that's the "Greek" system of an experiment with capitalism. Hence you have people protesting in the streets against an increasingly alienating government that operates in ways completely unfamiliar to them.

To further my point with your question - the fact that I live in my parents' house yet have my own job is a display of interdependence - certainly still an important aspect of Greek families like all other Mediterranean families (such as mine), and something that seems to be utterly unfamiliar (indeed - even counterproductive) to sad North Americans.

It is funny how, when a couple of years back I made the "why don't you travel?" thread, the majority of responses from N. Americans were along the lines of simply having no time to do so!

And just for the record, the above is not to be taken as the typical america-is-bad criticism, but more of a "socialism is better" argument.

[Shimmer.Fade]

Lol..I think we all agree the Greeks fucked up . However, I think it is fair to say the American system of not being able to really enjoy the money you make is pretty sad and flawed. I think looking to other countries who manage to have a fair work week and a good amount of vacation while staying extremely competitive is a good place to start.

[ebola?]

Originally Posted by jamshyd

interdependence - certainly still an important aspect of Greek families like all other Mediterranean families (such as mine), and something that seems to be utterly unfamiliar (indeed - even counterproductive) to sad North Americans.

...unfamiliar to middle-class families here (and those of better off classes)...

[IAmJacksUserName]

Originally Posted by Shimmer.Fade

I think looking to other countries who manage to have a fair work week and a good amount of vacation while staying extremely competitive is a good place to start.

That's a contradiction. People, like this 28 year-old hairdresser who insists she is entitled to retire by 50, want to eat the cake and have it to. Who is going to support the country down the road? Not the younger generation, as birthrates are falling. Given that life expectancies are only increasing, they're creating a scenario where people will spend almost half their lives retired. That may sound good to a working class voter, but then again, since when do voters look at the bigger equation?

[crimsonjunk]

^^
I gotta agree with you. The same problem is happening with social security in the US not many people lived past 65 in the 30s now almost everyone does thus bankrupting the system. The problem becomes its a political nightmare to take away entitlments because there you have a large pissed off voting block. I think socialism is the real bullshit in all this. A mix between the richs of capatilism and the entitlments of communism simply does not work over the long haul. We need true communism or true capatilism or I fear we are destined for bankrupcy.

[IAmJacksUserName]

Whenever I hear people in developed European countries becoming indignant over working more than 35 hours a week or not getting retired by the age of 50, I wonder, wow? They sound like spoilt rich westerners for one thing, but are they really that divorced from their labor and the ultimate product of their labor? Do they not realize that working is what improves developing societies and keeps wealthy societies wealthy? (Even rich CEOs tend to pull 14 hour workdays.) The workplace isn't just some necessary evil that only exists to get workers paid, it's the place where people go to contribute to society. It's true all over the world, whether you're harvesting rice in India or building cars in a German factory. We all like to have fun and go on holidays, but I'm seeing an increasing trend of stigmatizing the very concept of work, as if it were some nuisance that we'd all be better without. But work (in all its forms) isn't just a pillar of society, it is THE pillar of society, and I wish western culture was more willing to embrace that ideal.

[ebola?]

are they really that divorced from their labor and the ultimate product of their labor?

Of course! The socio-economy is structured such to condition this very outlook. . .