*Fixed to be safe (although .2 ml iso is not going to start a fire unless you live in a lint house with sawdust walls) Please don't close, this info will be helpful for everyone who wants subcutex but gets suboxone.
This seems to make suboxone way more potent, if you just disolve subs in water and do them the bupe is not that soluble in water but the naloxone is. So you could end up with a nice big shot of withdrawal.
If you crush half a pill, disolve in about .40 ml 91% iso alcohol. Carefully filter with cotton, put in second spoon, add another .20-.30 ml iso to the mix, and extract again. Combine both pulls in second spoon, and filter again. Should be a little orange but clear, no milky particles. Let it sit in a warm drafty place until it evaporates completely. If you were to accidentally boot iso your liver oxidizes it into acetone, so don't do that. Add .4 ml water and heat while stirring, once it all is in solution suck up again and boot it.
This seems to work well, it all makes sense according to the solubility of bupe. Since the naloxone is almost insoluble in iso it stays in the first spoon along with all the other shit besides some flavoring and artificial coloring. As a side note your dealing with the dihydride form of naloxone. I was a chem major. I tested this and it didn't give me w/d's, I normally need H a couple times a day and i did this and felt great for around 26 hours. I put this together from various posts but my searches showed many people were unaware of this method to separate suboxone. So give it a shot and get back to me
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- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
Ok, Im sure this process would work since its based on simply solubility, but let me ask.....what's the point?
As has been said 38 billion times, the naloxone in suboxone has no effect. Yes naloxone is an antagonist, but bupe has such a high affinity for your opioid receptors, that the naloxone has no chance of actually binding to your receptors and acting as an antagonist.
So what is the point of removing something that is inactive?
Additionally, while you are cleaning this pill up a bit, you are still shooting a pill, which is asking for trouble.
Now, there are times when someone could make the argument that the payoff is worth the risk of shooting a pill (many would cite dilaudid as an example).
However, shooting suboxone offers no payoff. There is NO rush or increased euhporia. I suppose it kicks in 10 minutes faster if you boot it, but that is hardly reason enough to take on the risk of shooting a pill.
So, what is the point of going through all of this?-DG
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
Well i would disagree with you that the naloxone is totally inactive, many people have headaches as a side effect. Also if you were doing subs for the first time after a lot of heavy opiate use this would keep you from going into w/d's. And although shooting a pill is never really a good idea, after you filter it three or four times almost all the inert stuff is filtered out. You end up with what I would estimate to be around 10 mg of orange/red goo containing 2 mg or 1/5 active ingredient (from a quarter pill). So not very much inert shit gets disolved by the alcohol.
Its not a rush but compared to normal administration it gets me way higher and it lasts a long time. It takes like 10 minutes to really hit you. I have yet to do a whole pill this way, i'm usually good on quarters and thirds for a whole day.
I don't know, if you like your blocker then take it, I just wanted to do this because i've never had subcutex and i wanted to see what its like to have bupe by itself.
Lactose monohydrate,- not soluble
Mannitol, - not soluble
Maize starch, not soluble
Povidone K 30, - soluble in water and alcohol and may be irritant
Citric acid anhydrous, - a little soluble
Sodium citrate, - insoluble
Magnesium stearate, slightly soluble in cold alcohol
Acesulfame potassium, - slightly soluble in alcohol
Natural lemon and lime flavour. - unknown, probably soluble
05-01-2010 02:22If you were to accidentally boot iso your liver oxidizes it into acetone, so don't do that.
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
Sorry, I dont mean to be a stickler, but you are still posting some incorrect information, and if someone were to act according to something you stated in your last post, they could end up throwing themselves into withdrawals.
You stated that by removing the naloxone, you could use the suboxone after heavy opiate use to avoid getting thrown into withdrawals. This is a common misconception, and entirely incorrect.
Again, the bupe has a much higher affinity then the naloxone (and a much higher affinity then nearly all opioids). When you take suboxone (or subutex) very soon after using another opiate, its the BUPE that throws you into withdrawal, not the naloxone. Because the bupe has a higher affinity then both the naloxone, and whatever opiate you were using earlier, the bupe pulls the other opiate off your receptors and replaces it with itself. Because bupe is partial agonist, there is a net decrease in opioid receptor agonism when the bupe pulls the full agonist (heroin, oxy etc) off of your receptors and replaces it with itself (a partial agonist).
So you see, the naloxone has nothing to do with it. Its the bupe that pulls off the other agonist and replaces it with itself, not the naloxone.
Again, Im not trying to be a stickler, but if someone were to read your post, they might mistakenly think that by removing the naloxone from suboxone (or simply use subutex), they dont have to worry about precipitating withdrawals from dosing with suboxone too soon after taking another opiate. This is absolutely not the case. If someone were to use pure bupe, they have to be every bit as careful in terms of not dosing too soon after using another opiate, as they would be if they were using suboxone.
BTW, I will agree with you that naloxone does cause headaches in some patients, in fact it did for me. I got switched from suboxone to subutex for this reason, and while my headaches did go away, I do not notice any other difference between suboxone and subutex. They have the same "feeling" for me, except I dont get the headaches.
Anyway, if u are on suboxone, u should talk to your doc about switching u to subutex. Im not sure if u know, but subutex has recently gone generic (suboxone has not). So, u can get subutex for much much cheaper these days.
The problem is, many bupe docs mistakenly think (like you) that the naloxone actually does something in the suboxone, and therefore dont want to switch people to subutex. It really is criminal how the manufacturers pulled the wool over the medical communities' eyes by convincing them that the naloxone is active and prevents abuse. This point is not up for debate. It has been proven again and again that the naloxone is not active in the suboxone formulation. It was a real slick move by the manufacturers, but a slimy one at that. -DG
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
20 to 50% of an absorbed dose is excreted unchanged.
Most isopropyl alcohol is oxidized in the liver by alcohol
dehydrogenase to acetone, which is probably further
metabolized to acetate, formate, and finally carbon dioxide.
Acetone may contribute to the CNS depression seen in
your body has trouble getting rid of acetone
I'm telling you, it gets metabolized to lactic acid.
Maybe I'm not looking hard enough, but every study I'm seeing shows it being metabolised to acetic acid, with no mention of lactic acid.
And actually, I'm having a really hard time believing that
is turned into
Not gonna happen. It's metabolised to acetone and then to acetic acid, I imagine. Lactic acid isn't part of the process.
Perhaps you're thinking about n-propanol? Because what I can find says that you're completely wrong on this one. Actually, even n-propanol is metabolized to propionaldehyde and then propionic acid, and even acetaldehyde and acetic acid to a smaller degree.
edit... hmm.. svg's won't show. Well, the top is isopropanol and the bottom is lactic acid.
Last edited by Hammilton; 05-01-2010 at 05:03.
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
Yea your right don't do bupe if your heavy into stuff, you still should wait till you at least feel sick. The docs are more likely to give you subcutex that second day clean though because blocker isn't going to help you feel better. Your right about the blocker i guess, Its just america with suboxone.
naloxone should be removed so you can get higher if you want to on opiates and not get sick.
You should read daddysgone's post a few posts above.
Also isn't oral naloxone destroyed by first pass metabolism by the liver? I also thought that the naloxone was added to suboxone to prevent IV use? Though I guess if the bup has higher affinity for u opiate receptors the naloxone wouldn't be able to pull enough bup molecules of the receptors.
05-01-2010 12:40Maybe I'm not looking hard enough, but every study I'm seeing shows it being metabolised to acetic acid, with no mention of lactic acid.
It's just that I could swear I've heard (or read) someone on this forum tell me that acetone -> lactic. And IIRC it wasn't just some random guy either...
Well I guess it goes to show you should never trust what people tell you...
i dont understand, i never got sick when i use subutex and other opiates, but sick as fuck when i try to do the same with suboxone... i guess im different?
Both Subutex and Suboxone have Buprenorphine as the main active ingredient but:
Suboxone is a mixture of Nuprenorphine and the is a μ-opioid receptor competitive antagonist Naloxone which prevents users from abusing it intravenously, but only orally since Naloxone (unlike Naltrexone) is orally inactive.
Subutex has only Buprenorphine as an active ingredient so it can be abused also intravenously if turned into a solution.
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
Please read my post above. The same misinformation keeps getting posted here no matter how many times it is corrected.
You are right that naloxone is inactive orally...but so is buperenorphine. But remember, we dont take suboxone orally, we take it SUBLINGUALLY. So yes, both the bupe and naloxone are orally inactive, but they are absorbed directly into the bloodstream via sublingual administration.
However, none of this matters because ONCE AGAIN, bupe has a much much higher affinity for opiate receptors then naloxone does. Therefore, when you take suboxone, the bupe binds to your receptors and blocks the naloxone, making the naloxone inactive.
If you were dumb enough to IV suboxone, you would still get high because even though the naloxone gets into your bloodstream, it will have no chance of binding to your receptors because the bupe has such a higher affinity.
When will this matter finally be put to rest? Honestly, its the manufacturers of suboxone who are to blame. They know god damn well that the naloxone present in suboxone has no effect, and is just there to dupe the medical community into thinking that it makes suboxone less abusable.
I firmly believe they should be prosecuted for falsely representing their product.-DG
Actually... naloxone when taken orally has laxative effects, due to it binding to and antagonizing the mu receptors in the gut. So when you swallow your xone, it might make you run for the toilet... I know it did for me when I started on suboxone... but that's about all it will do.
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
Aha! So it metabolizes to both acetic and lactic acids? Or did I read that chart wrong?
07-01-2010 19:31J Biol Chem. 1984 Jan 10;259(1):231-6.
The metabolism of acetone in rat.
Casazza JP, Felver ME, Veech RL.
Intraperitoneal injection of 5 mumol of acetone/g, body weight, into 3 rats previously fed 1% acetone (v/v) in their drinking water resulted in the appearance in blood serum of 16 +/- 2 nmol of 1,2-propanediol/ml and 8 +/- 1 nmol of 2,3-butanediol/ml. No detectable 1,2-propanediol or 2,3-butanediol was found in the serum of animals after acetone or saline injection without prior addition of acetone to drinking water or in the serum of animals injected with saline after having been maintained on drinking water containing 1% acetone. These data suggest that acetone both acts to induce a critical enzyme or enzymes and serves as a precursor for the production of 1,2-propanediol. It is also clear from these data that chronic acetone feeding plays a role in 2,3-butanediol production in the rat. Microsomes isolated from the liver of animals maintained on drinking water supplemented with 1% acetone contained two previously unreported enzymatic activities, acetone monooxygenase which converts acetone to acetol and acetol monooxygenase which converts acetol to methylglyoxal. Both activities require O2 and NADPH. Prior treatment with acetone increased serum D-lactate from 9 nmol/ml +/- 9 nmol/ml in control animals to 77 +/- 36 nmol/ml in acetone-fed animals after injection with 5 mumol of acetone/g, body weight. This is consistent with methylglyoxal being a by-product of acetone metabolism. Two pathways for the conversion of acetone to glucose are proposed, the methylglyoxal and the propanediol pathways. The methylglyoxal pathway is responsible for the conversion of acetone to acetol, acetol to methylglyoxal, and the subsequent conversion of methylglyoxal to glucose. The propanediol pathway involves the conversion of acetol to L-1,2-propanediol by an as yet unknown process. L-1,2-Propanediol is converted to L-lactaldehyde by alcohol dehydrogenase, and L-lactaldehyde is converted to L-lactic acid by aldehyde dehydrogenase. Expression of these metabolic pathways in rat appears to be dependent on the induction of acetone monooxygenase and acetol monooxygenase by acetone.
As someone who regularly injects suboxone, I am curious as to if extracting it thru alcohol first to rid the solution of some of the inerts is helpful for harm reduction. According to a previous post in the thread, there are a few other inert ingredients that aren't soluble in alcohol , such as corn starch. I've done alcohol extractions on pills before so I'm ok with doing it, but only when necessary, like tramadol. Is it worth the extra steps to be rid of these?
As to why I prefer injecting suboxone, the main reason is efficiency. I can inject 1-2 mg and be good for a day. It takes atleast 4 mg sub. to have the same affect. Also, I have a hard time keeping them in my mouth w/o puking. I have vomited on more than one occasion from the taste (not from WD). It also takes affect in 15 minutes versus the 90 minutes if taken by sub. You do have to be careful when injecting though. It's much easier to bring on precipitated w/d this way. Wait a little longer for your induction than usual, even longer if you're coming down off methadone.
The other thing that gets me is that I buy my sub on the street because between the doc and the pharmacy, $150/month & $7.50/pill, it's cheaper. If the doc would just prescribe the subutex, then I could get the generic form and do it legit for almost the same price. But none of the docs I talked to will do that. It drives me nuts as suboxone is just as easy to abuse as the subutex. Not to mention, the whole pain management specialist thing is a big scam. There's no reason why a regular doctor can't prescribe this schedule 3 drug.
just noticed previous poster has my favorite drug as a s/n.
10-01-2010 02:08Naloxone was put in their to trick the FDA into approving the drug and it worked.
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
Swim is glad he ran across this post (which of course he ended up testing the topic of the thread once done reading... notes on experience further down this is just the story he was hoping someone would get enjoyment out of reading). A few weeks ago swim was getting subutex from his friend and swim enjoyed IVing them very very much (swim also happens to be the type of person who did everything from dros to fent and everything inbetween like the o so common dillys and ocs). It was like hitting a jackpot for swim b/c his buddy sold most of his script to swim and not only were they affordable, but they gave swim a GREAT rush and high for a very very long time (in terms of rush times). Than something horrible happened... supposedly all the pharmacies in swim's city no longer carried the subutex and swim was forced to get the nasty tasting orange mints. Now swim is the type of person that researches EVERYTHING before he does it and this was no exception. At first all swim found were the "scare" stories about the naloxone monster that brought pain and suffering to every inch of swims body. So swim didn't like the idea and swim went to find something swim could put in a rig. Well come to find out all the things swim use to know and love were:
1. insanely expensive
2. just didn't give the same punch time that the subutex did.
So swim gave up and started to take the orange mints as "prescribed" for his friend by his friend's doctor. Than swim had some money and decided to wait 24 hrs and go get high. Of course swim ALSO has a problem with the casino and got the bright idea that he could double his money and thus double the high. Crushed by his defeat swim went home a sad panda. And with the determination to find a way to get a rush swim went "Google"ing again and found the most remarkable post. Not only could he find a way to rig up the breath mints... but he could banish the evil hidden within their depths! So after much deliberation swim finally decided this was the best option (out of the 4 ways he could have gone about this according to his research). Needless to say swim was quite happy with the result. So happy that he made an account to some website just so he could tell his story and say THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!
1. Swim knows that the naloxone's affinity is too low to do anything against the bupe. But swim wanted to have the peace of mind to know that nothing would go wrong (aside from the normal problems associated with IV). So please don't post how swim was stupid for going through this process because after all... swim did it for peace of mind more than anything and will continue to do it for peace of mind.
2. FYI swim has managed to find three other methods of IV which are as follows:
a. crush, mix (with water), draw (no heat) and shoot the old fashion way.
b. crush "lightly", mix with "next to freezing" water and tilt the needle at such an angle (against the cotton) that it draws up the water very slowly. Which in effect was suppose to separate the the naloxone from the bupe (which totally seemed far fetched and was "hard to explain" according to the author of this method).
c. crush, mix slightly (with cold water), draw (with the cotton at the edge of the puddle in spoon) and dispose of the first draw. The reasoning behind this being that naloxone is very soluble in water where as the bupe isn't so the first draw will be most/all the naloxone and very little/none of the bupe. Than treat the spoon as a "wash" load and shot (this seemed to be a very wasteful way of going about this).
3. Swim is a very impatient person so he added about 5 units of water and held a lighter under the "2nd" spoon until the iso had evapped (mind you he was still careful taking such precautions as holding the lighter about 3 inches under the spoon and having a big cup of water underneath). When most of it was gone there was still a "bubbling" portion in the spoon that swim thought was still iso but actually found out (after not being able to evap it) that it was (he guesses) sugar that underwent caramelization. So from his experience the easiest way to tell when the mix has been evapped of all iso swim recommends swiy smell it.
*edit* Swim is very impatient and now just lights the damn spoon on fire... while keeping the lighter underneath and removing periodically depending on top flame size lol after all swim likes his eyebrows.
4. Swim use to have a big habit but has since really dialed back what he use to do. Although the occasional opiate does peak his fancy swim prefers these to keep well and to get him through the day. Though swim had a big habit swim only did a half an 8 and it was more than enough to get swim where he wanted to go. Swim cannot confirm whether this will prevent DTs or not, but, within the last 6-7 hours swim had smoked an OC and has only good things to say about the experience. And before that swim probably hadn't done an OC for a week... and a month before that.
5. In swim's opinion IV sub is a very fun way to go. Swim get's a rush as long as his shots aren't too close to each other.
So here now is the end of swim's post and again swim would like to say THANK YOU VERY MUCH for the post . Swim hopes swim's story ends up helping someone in some small way. At the very least though swim hopes that it at least brings a smile to the posters face. Happy V day
Last edited by aznboi777; 28-02-2010 at 12:19. Reason: just adding something
I'm sure someone else can comment on this with more authority because I'm not 100% sure when suboxone came out vs. subutex though I'm fairly certain they were within 2 years of eachother, if not a few months.