MDMA & psychosis

[MasterOfDeception]

Hey, I have had a few psychotic episodes (mostly due to large doses of psychedelics), even been hospitalized twice. Now I am without psychotic symptoms for more than 1-1,5 years, although I am on Seroquel. So I think I would rather not have any further experience with classic psychedelics, especially acid, but after I quit my medication (around half a year from now) I am thinking of having MDMA experience. I've never had experienced MDMA before, except from an xtc pill back , but it was very weak.

So my question is how dangerous could that be ? I should state that I feel totally chilled and psychologically stable for the last year or so.

I think the most dangerous think about MDMA would be the depression crash afterwards, although even that can be tackled with 5htp and nootrops.

So, spit out your opinions, I am especially interested in the experiences of those that have been through (relatively heavy) psychotic episodes and decided to do MDMA some time afterwards.

[ahint]

I agree with you in that I think the comedown would be the worst part for you. But if you've been stable for a year, and create a thorough plan for your comedown (not only with the 5hpt etc, but with creating a calming atmosphere and perhaps a friend you can call etc), I don't see a problem, although it goes without saying to do your research and be VERY cautious. It's also worth pointing out that during the come-up you'll likely become very anxious, and if anxiety is a problem with your psychosis I'd think twice. Also, depends what your pill is cut with - MDMA is one thing, but a lot of pills are cut with things like speed etc, which is a whole other story when it comes to triggering psychosis and other issues.

I've had semi-psychotic experiences - I've been delusional and heard things, but never gone into full 'psychosis' nor was it caused by the use of heavy psychedelics, but I was completely fine with MDMA. Obviously the come-up wasn't pleasant nor was the comedown, but it didn't cause any lasting damage or bring forth my underlying issues.

Best wishes.

[MasterOfDeception]

Thanx for the reply. Yeah for sure I would want to have a very trustworthy friend nearby. I have never heard things during my psychosis, but I have been pretty delusional, and experience rather serious mania and depression. And yeah my psychosis has been pretty much related to anxiety.
I will make sure that what I am getting is just pure MDMA and nothing else
I would like this experience not only to be positive, but therapeutic and boosting as well.

[ahint]

Hi - sorry if my reply is a tad scattered - damn insomnia...

It's definitely a good idea to have a trustworthy friend! Even for the comedown it might be an idea to have a friend 'handy', as the comedown (for me at least) always feels very dreary and depressing, so line up your coping techniques for that, and remember it's only temporary! And alright, I'd be especially careful around MDMA then. If anxiety is an issue for you you're really going to want to plan anti-anxiety techniques for the come-up. It's not too bad, but it's noticeable, and if you're very sensitive to anxiety then it could be a problem.

That said, MDMA really is a beautiful substance and usually isn't a problem for disorders like that.

Also keep in mind that it's very, very rare to get pure MDMA. Make sure you test it. Your experience is likely to be positive, and possibly therapeutic if you use it right (but only in the way of seeing the world in a 'whole new light' and opening you up, which if that's what you need and mean by therapeutic, great) - I know mine definitely was, and lots of people report feeling fulfilled and opened up after their experience! You have to learn how to use it sober, though. Just be cautious and have a great time.

[Andronicus]

Call me old fashioned but if you've already suffered mental illness like psychosis triggered by drugs and are on medication for it.....you might consider not taking more drugs. Why bother? Why take the risk?

[MasterOfDeception]

I see your point and thanks for your concern. However, drugs are a vast category of substances, each group of them being quite distinct and different from one another. So, as I said, I am not that keen on doing classic psychedelics again, especially acid, but for example I do drink alcohol and smoke nicotine or weed ocassionaly. So why bother with the MDMA? As I said I would be interested in the boost and positive changes it might induce!

I would be mostly interested in the experience with MDMA post-illness,of those that have already suffered psychosis or even some related mental illness eg bipolars,

[Andronicus]

I've done a lot of mdma over the last 20 years. Apart from improving my record collection I can't say it has induced any positive changes to my mind or brain.

[MasterOfDeception]

I've done a lot of mdma over the last 20 years. Apart from improving my record collection I can't say it has induced any positive changes to my mind or brain.

Many people (including friends) claim that it can help you speak out what's inside you, even stuff you are generally ashamed to talk about, and that can be quite therapeutic. Also it boosts confidence and makes you more extroverted and confident.Furthermore it makes it easier for you to understand others' emotional situation etc (empathy). Haven't you noticed changes like these?

[RobotRipping]

I had a significant psychotic break following extreme psychedelic use about 6 years ago; it was crazy and paranoid lasting about 3-4 weeks, the haze cleared and I was relatively fine after that. I've used MDMA since then and it never caused a problem (of course who knows how pure it was, but I tried multiple kinds, probably 20 times or so). I've also used plenty of psychedelics and have been fine. It's like my foundation was rocked but since it's stable again I'm just more careful and haven't thought the CIA were recruiting me through secret messages in my junk mail since. I think you'll be okay just watch out for the warning signs; I'm sure you know them.

[LogicSoDeveloped]

Piracetam will help also, considering looking into it. It boosts brain function and from my experience as well as many others, it clears up the "fog" that can linger for a few days after an MDMA experience.

[im3rdworld]

refer to pill reports for the quality and contents of the pill that u will be getting ,or a testing kit if ur getting molly, in you area. and make sure u have a few benzos at hand incase the come down is a lil rough. i always pop a benzo when coming down works like magic.

[MasterOfDeception]

Well I am not gonna do pill test, I am more hoping that I will know the guy that will synhetize it.
For the comedown, I wouldn't use a benzo, maybe Seroquel, but I would try to avoid it by any means.

[First Bad Comedown]

Rather than making blanket statements about how much it would be worth the experience...or about how the risk is too great...

It looks like you have already decided you want to do this.
Now you are looking for advice about the risks and the approach you might use to minimize them.
Am I right?

Some good ideas...

Lets test your serotonergic function in advance.
There are two ways to do this that are simple and cheap.
One is to increase serotonin levels, the other is to decrease them.
By increasing them you will assess your risk for serotonin syndrome and acute reactions to MDMA.
By decreasing them you will assess your risk of having a hard comedown.

Buy some tryptophan.
5-HTP would also work as it is a form of tryptophan, but the b-vitamin content can be quite high, which speeds up the conversion to serotonin.
Stick with regular tryptophan and start with a single dose.
You should simply get a little sleepy within a few hours. Should be very relaxing.
Try a larger dose, such as two or three pills.

What you are looking for is more than just anxiety.
Racing heart, sweaty palms, restlessness, agitation, jerking, intestinal cramping, vomiting, diarrhea, and fever are all physical signs of a sensitivity.
Dizziness, lack of coordination, and panic/anxiety are also on the list.

Typically an increase in heart rate along with agitation and sweaty palms are the first signs.
While this is expected with very high doses of tryptophan, a well functioning serotonin system should be able to handle 1-3 doses in a healthy person.
If you experience some of these symptoms, you may have a lower serotonin threshold than you think.
If you simply get sleepy, try repeating the experiment the next day. But be careful - tryptophan and serotonin both build up in the intestines...so subsequent doses are more and more likely to produce problems.

If you are taking ANY other serotonin active substance, do NOT take the chance with the above suggestion.
SSRIs, MAOIs, tryciclics, tramadol, and St. John's Wort are all very bad ideas. If you have taken any of these recently do NOT do this experiment on yourself.
By combining serotonin agents, you are much more likely to experience ALL of the symptoms I described, sometimes severely.
We are testing to see if your threshold for Serotonin Syndrome is low...we are not trying to force it to happen no matter what!

If symptoms DO appear and are severe you need to control your reaction.
Body temperature is the MOST important factor, this is true for MDMA toxicity as well as Serotonin toxicity induced by other substances.
You need to cool yourself rapidly and aggressively. Remove all clothing and repeatedly apply a rag soaked in ICE water to your neck, face, head, back...etc.
Serotonin Syndrome is considered severe if a fever of 101.4 is reached. Other symptoms are normally quite serious before a real fever develops.
At 104, organ damage begins and seizures become much more likely.

The agitation and tremors that accompany serotonin syndrome are the effects of smooth muscle being stimulated out of control. This because serotonin controls smooth muscles, most notably the intestines. These smooth muscles may begin to break down, releasing toxic myoglobin into the bloodstream. This can damage the kidneys and lead to acidosis of the blood. And retention of fluids, resulting in swelling around the brain in severe cases. The best treatment for these problems are the slow intake of salt and baking soda. This will adjust the electrolyte imbalance and reduce the acidity of the blood. Moderate intake is important, quick alterations are dangerous.

Lowering body temperature is ALWAYS the first line of defense, whether Serotonin Syndrome or an acute reaction to MDMA is occurring. Keep this in mind if you do decide to roll. Aggressive measures, even if you haven't developed a fever yet. Don't forget the electrolytes and sodium bicarbonate.

If you are twitchy or having tremors, a benzodiazapene will normally stop the process of muscle breakdown.
That means valium, xanax, or klonopin. Beyond controlling your fever, controlling the destruction of smooth or skeletal muscle tissue is important as this can lead to a few very serious complications.

So, whether you are doing the tryptophan test, or actually taking MDMA...make sure you have everything listed above prepared.
Ice water, A/C on high, gatorade, baking soda, xanax...AND a friend to watch you.

Now, for the opposite tryptophan test - reduction.
By depleting your tryptophan levels we can see how sensitive you will be to the reduction you will see in the days/weeks following MDMA use.
In order to lower serotonin levels, we need only to increase another amino acid than tryptophan.
Doing this will dilute tryptophan, and therefore serotonin levels, relative to their counterparts.
The best and safest amino acid to do this with is Lysine.

Taking 3-4 pills at a time is within reason.
It is NOT recommended to do EITHER the increase or decrease test with a really full stomach.
Remember, intestinal motility is the primary function of serotonin. It is important that your intestines not be called upon to digest several large meals, so eat reasonably and small portions for a day or two leading up to these experiments.

Anxiety and panic may still ensue if you have a predisposition to problems.
The other symptoms of Serotonin Syndrome will not occur, but strong psychological consequences definitely suggest that you lack the robust serotonin system that most people have.

If either the sudden increase or decrease of serotonin causes significant panic, consider it a clear sign that you should NOT proceed with MDMA.
The increase in serotonin is quite severe with MDMA, and sudden. Do NOT forget all the coping measures I mentioned...have them handy if you decide to go through with it.

Another great suggestion - Piracetam.
It is known to increase serotonin and dopamine in the prefrontal cortex.
Some research demonstrates that it protects neurons from a hypoxic state, if administered in large doses beforehand.
Anecdotal evidence suggests that it not only potentiates the euphoria of MDMA, but it also modulates the negative effects.
Many people say it decreases the comedown by a great deal - post-loading may even decrease toxicity.
Pre-loading is definitely advised, just make sure to space it by several hours.
Some have claimed Piracetam ruined their roll when taken at the same time.
Most agree that taking it at least 3-4 hours prior is ideal, while others think it should be taken in small doses for 2-3 DAYS before the roll.

It would likely be a great companion, especially if you are taking a risk with your mental health.
It increases the permeability of cellular membranes in the brain, as well as neurotransmitter activity in the PFC.
Fish oil, in high doses, is definitely recommended.

Waiting 2 years sounds like a decent time frame, but if you had experienced a longer recovery than just a few weeks, such as a year, you would want to wait a little longer.
Do NOT listen to everyone's opinion about 5-HTP being a good pre and post load.
In fact, it can increase the risk of Serotonin Syndrome....even if a drug other than MDMA is being used.
Besides, MDMA inhibits the enzyme that synthesizes more serotonin - for up to 3 months!

If you ARE going to take it, make sure you stop taking it for SEVERAL days prior to your roll. And do NOT post-load the next day - the metabolites of MDMA remain in the body for 3-5 days. Wait at least 2-3 days if you want to post-load.

And besides ALL the advice I have given, the absolute best plan is to take pure verified product in a dosage that you KNOW.
Stay under 200mg and do NOT redose, no matter how tempting it may be.
ReDosing has been proven to increase toxicity while delivering diminishing returns. Just isn't worth it.

I hope this helped!

[MasterOfDeception]

That was helpful yes and thanks for it. As for as the sensitivity to serotonin levels, I am on Seroquel which is a serotonin antagonist, which as I learned in another thread, means that it blocks some serotonin neuroreceptors, but that leads to increased activity in the rest Serotonin neuroreceptros. However that doesn't have to do with the amount of serotonin in the intracell so I can't really know. Anyhow I might try your tests before.

Besides, MDMA inhibits the enzyme that synthesizes more serotonin - for up to 3 months!

That's exactly the reason one takes 5-HTP , no ? The enzyme synthesizes less serotonin than before, so you increase the serotonin precursor.

If you ARE going to take it, make sure you stop taking it for SEVERAL days prior to your roll. And do NOT post-load the next day - the metabolites of MDMA remain in the body for 3-5 days. Wait at least 2-3 days if you want to post-load.

So you say wait at least 2-3 days so that I avoid the possibility of serotonin syndrome?